My guest for this episode of the Crime Cafe podcast is clinical psychotherapist and crime writer Harper Kincaid.
Learn more about the challenges and joys of the writing life, along with the inspiration for her books and advice for anyone who wants to write.
Download a copy of the transcript here.
Debbi (00:54): Hi everyone. My guest today is the USA Today bestselling author of the books in the Bookbinder Mystery series, Bookbinding Mystery series. Her work has been published in a variety of publications including Writer's Digest Magazine and CrimeReads, and many, many others. It's my pleasure to have with me today, Harper Kincaid. Hi Harper.
Harper (01:19): Hey, Deb. To everybody here. Such a fabulous treat to be able to meet with you today and talk.
Debbi (01:26): Awesome. Yeah, it's great to meet you too. And I love your name, Harper. You weren't named for Harper Lee, were you?
Harper (01:32): No, and honestly, it's a pen name because I'm also a licensed clinical psychotherapist, and so I try to keep, I don't really keep the streams very separate anymore, but when I first started writing, I was doing child and adolescent social work and I was writing dirty romance and people getting killed. So maybe you want to not have that come up in the same Google search for that kind of thing.
Debbi (02:03): Understandable. Yes, very much so. Let's see. You were born in California and raised in Florida. Then—I love this quote—"moved like a nomad with a bounty" on your head.
Harper (02:15): I did.
Debbi (02:17): Where are you living now?
Harper (02:19): So I have lived right outside of Washington DC in a town, Vienna, Virginia, Northern Virginia. Actually, the Bookbinding series is based there and in the series we're not going to talk too much about it, but it's a combination of places and people and businesses that are really there and some that I've made up. And a girlfriend of mine said it's Vienna zhuzhed up in the books. So I've been there for almost 20 years at this point. But it's true. I lived in New Orleans, I lived all over South Florida. I lived in Northern California, but we're East Coasters and we are there in the DC area, which is an interesting time to be there, to say the least.
Debbi (03:04): Well, cool. I'm glad you're relatively close to where I am.
Harper (03:10): And where are you based? Remind me.
Debbi (03:10): I'm in Columbia, Maryland.
Harper (03:13): Oh, I'm going to wave. *waving*
Debbi (03:16): Hey! *waving* Right across the river. Hey, there, across the river, Vienna and all that. Wow.
Harper (03:24): It's nice. It's funny, when I first came to the area, I did not understand this demarcation between Maryland and Virginia that people, like Virginia people did not really go over to Maryland, vice versa. And I was like, it's not that far. What's the big deal? And I don't know if that's ever been your experience, but that was something I found really strange.
Debbi (03:47): I have found a little peculiar myself when I first came here because I'm originally from New York and I've lived in all these different places too, like California, Pennsylvania, and then back DC for one summer. I mean, it's just here, there and everywhere. Indeed. So when you encounter something like that, you're kind like, what?
Harper (04:11): Yeah, every region, I guess.
Debbi (04:13): And then there's the traffic.
Harper (04:13): Oh, the traffic is never going to get better.
Debbi (04:18): Oh, it is outrageous around here. It really is, and it always makes its way into my books somehow. I mean, I write about around here and one of the things I always write about is traffic. The traffic is terrible.
Harper (04:30): It's true. Everyone can relate to that for sure.
Debbi (04:32): For sure. Yeah, and anytime I've been in Los Angeles, everybody there is so polite by comparison to here, yet people complain about the traffic there and I just don't understand it.
Harper (04:44): Every region has its little peccadillos, right?
Debbi (04:47): I suppose so, yeah. I guess if I were living in LA, I would have my peccadillos about the traffic there.
Harper (04:54): You absolutely would.
Debbi (04:55): Yes, absolutely. For sure. What was it that inspired you to write the Bookbinder Mysteries? Why a bookbinder in a bookstore?
I wanted to learn the book business. So I ended up getting a job at my local independent bookseller Bards Alley in Vienna. And I just loved all the characters and the people that would come in.
Harper (05:05): Right. Well, it was art imitating life a little bit because I had finished my graduate education for clinical psychotherapy, but I was writing more full-time and I wanted to learn the book business. So I ended up getting a job at my local independent bookseller Bards Alley in Vienna. And I just loved all the characters and the people that would come in. And it was around that time when I was making the switch from romance to mysteries, cozy mysteries, and my agent Jill Marsal from Marsal Lyon, she said, I've been talking with a couple of editors, and they would really love something that's based in a bookstore in a southern town, but it's a feminist and maybe you could throw some nuns and a German Shepherd in there. It was really specific and weird. And the irony of that was that I did do that.
(06:07): I put the proposal together, and the one other editor who really wanted all of those things was the first to reject it. And in the meantime, I had a couple of others who accepted it and then they got to battle it out. And then I was writing that. And so that's where it came from. It was this, when you're in genre fiction, oftentimes it is this collaboration. I mean, sure, it can be just from the author and puts her, his or her or their pitch in there, but sometimes it is like you have these relationships with your agent or other editors and they're like, this is what we're looking for. What do you think? And that's how I got into the romance gig, what I ended up writing got published by one, but then another publisher said, well, that isn't right for us, but we like your voice. Will you write this? So it has more of that collaboration sort of a feel to it. I mean, versus maybe literary or memoir or something like that. So that's how I got into it. And the people of my town really, they love to see who's who. They all want you to figure out who the villain was. I always give a very PC answer. I say, if you like the character, it's based on you, and if you don't like it, it's something I made up. It's just a way to keep the peace. It's a good way to keep the piece, for sure.
[W]hat I ended up writing got published by one, but then another publisher said, well, that isn't right for us, but we like your voice. Will you write this? So it has more of that collaboration sort of a feel to it.
Debbi (07:30): Absolutely. Yeah. Never tell 'em it's based on real life.
Harper (07:34): No, no, for sure. Although real life can sometimes be even more interesting.
Debbi (07:39): Oh yeah, certainly.
Harper (07:41): For sure. Yeah.
Debbi (07:42): I mean it's like you can't make it up.
Harper (07:44): That's true.
Debbi (07:44): It's real.
Harper (07:45): That's right.
Debbi (07:47): Let's see. So your second book in that series had a Shakespearean theme. I couldn't help noticing. Does the play itself work its way into the plot, or is it just a play on words?
Harper (07:58): It's more of the play on words. There are Shakespearean elements for sure, and there is the, every chapter begins with a Shakespeare quote, not always from Midsummer Night's Dream, but from any of them. But then that's sort of your clue of what the theme of the chapter's going to be. So it's a nice little homage and a way for me to share my love for theater. I love any kind of musical theater, plays, whether it's Shakespeare, whether it's comedy of errors or things like that. So that's where that came from. And it could have gone a lot deeper into the whole really playing out the Shakespearean themes, but I was on a short deadline, so we were like, okay, let's just bang this out. And it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun.
So it's a nice little homage and a way for me to share my love for theater. I love any kind of musical theater, plays, whether it's Shakespeare, whether it's comedy of errors or things like that.
Debbi (08:50): Do you have background in the theater, just out of curiosity?
Harper (08:54): I did some acting back in 1912 when I was a teenager in college, but it was always an avocation, never the main thing. Then my oldest daughter sort of was doing the same thing again in her teenage years, and then we made a right turn into something else. But I absolutely adore the theater. I am fortunate enough, I'll drive up to the city, New York, and I'll see things off-Broadway or Broadway and someday I'll write a play. I haven't gotten there yet, but right now I just, I'm a super fan.
Debbi (09:32): Well, that's really cool. I think it's cool that you would like to write a play someday.
Harper (09:39): People always probably ask you this too. Oh, where do you get the ideas? And you're like, that's not the problem. I have so many ideas. What am I going to commit to take the time? Right. So
Debbi (09:53): Absolutely
Harper (09:54): On the list,
Debbi (09:56): And it takes some time to break into something like playwriting or screenwriting, I got to tell you.
Harper (10:01): Really. Absolutely. Well, you know, so.
Debbi (10:06): Oh boy. Yes, indeed. I know.
Harper (10:09): I would love to hear about that another time.
Debbi (10:11): Yeah, we can talk about that. Were you always interested in writing as a child?
Harper (10:20): That was always something since I was four years old, and then I kind of dabbled with it on and off to be a writer, even if you're writing fiction, there is an act of bravery to it. There's an unveiling of yourself. It's probably not a coincidence that I'm both a writer and a psychotherapist. And I think one informs the other. It took me a long time to learn how to write the way that I wanted to, that I always tell people who are starting out, when I've taught classes, there's this vision of what your writing is going to look like or the book or the play or what have you. And then there's the skill level that you're at at the time, and there's this big gulf in between.
It took me a long time to learn how to write the way that I wanted to, that I always tell people who are starting out, when I've taught classes, there's this vision of what your writing is going to look like or the book or the play or what have you.
(11:06): And if you can ride or surf that uncomfortableness and that sort of grind of the back and forth of learning, then you will get to that vision in your head. But there is that price to pay of your time and your dedication. And I also probably didn't get to it more until, I mean, my children were still pretty young, but until I was in my early forties is when I started. And just because I think I got into my forties and I was like, well, geez, how much longer are you going to wait for your dream?
Debbi (11:42): Exactly.
Harper (11:44): So I was like, ef it, I'm going to just throw something out there. My husband, this to me, he goes, I don't care how good or bad it is, but finish it and send it. Because I was very famous in the family for starting and not finishing creative projects.
Debbi (12:03): Oh dear.
Harper (12:03): No, but it was, I kind of needed that. I needed that.
Debbi (12:09): That's actually, yeah.
Harper (12:11): Yeah, just finish it. I don't care what it is or whatever happens with it. And that was one of the best, sometimes I get mad at him at the time, but later it's like, that was really actually quite helpful. So.
Debbi (12:23): The funny part is that I've read a nonfiction book, I think it was called Range or something like that. It was about how people who have multiple interests who maybe stop, start something and then stop it and do something else who jump around to doing different, developing different skills, actually exceed, excel in particular areas eventually.
Harper (12:49): Oh, I like that one.
Debbi (12:49): Yeah. I mean, it's like you got to read this book, you probably would like it.
Harper (12:54): I putting it on my list right now.
Debbi (12:55): I think it's called Range. I think it's called Range. [It is. I reviewed it here. Then, i did readings from it here.]
Harper (12:57): Okay.
Debbi (12:58): I reviewed it. But it's a really good book and it'll give you some hope there, because I'm the same way. I was trying this. I was trying that. And anyway, so how would you describe your writing style? What's your voice?
Harper (13:16): That's a great question. I tend to write more with a humorous, lighter banter, and yet I will be just under the surface will be some really more heartbreaking themes. And it's not that they're being ignored, and it's not that they're just being laughed away. It's life. They're the things that make you laugh and where you're savoring things. And then there's the things that are mending and breaking your heart at the same time. And sometimes we let them come to the surface and sometimes we don't. And I'm very, because of what I do for a living, I'm not going to enjoy if it's heavy all the time. I live with that. I hold a lot of pain and bevy of emotions for my patients, and I'm honored to do so. But then if I'm going to write, it doesn't mean it's going to be a comedic slapstick thing, but it's going to be more nuanced and it is going to be probably a bit lighter in tone just because that's kind of how we get through, isn't it?
I tend to write more with a humorous, lighter banter, and yet I will be just under the surface will be some really more heartbreaking themes.
Debbi (14:36): Exactly.
Harper (14:36): Right. And that's actually what kind of got me into genre fiction in the first place. I graduated from my social work program, and I had a really tough placement to earn my hours, and I just did not have the spoons, the capacity to do what I was doing there, and then read something like Lovely Bones or something that was really violent or graphic or what have you, or something. I wanted the guaranteed grownup happy ending, or at least close to it, or happy for now. I just couldn't, my nerves were shot. So that's what I was reading. That's what I was binge reading and then ended up coming into it. So I still probably have that as my voice.
Debbi (15:29): Interesting. Well, humor is always a nice thing to add, I think. A little bit.
Harper (15:34): A little bit, right. Without going to, it's not a comedy routine.
Debbi (15:39): Exactly. Yeah. A lot of situational humor sometimes.
Harper (15:44): Indeed, indeed.
Debbi (15:46): Let's see. And what are you working on now?
Harper (15:50): That's such a good question. I'm working on two, I sort of go back and forth between them. The fiction book, which is, I'll talk about the fiction one that's more probably of interest for your readers. It is about a group of Gen X young adults in Coconut Grove, Florida in the early 1980s. And they are sort of experiencing being the mature parents, even though their parents aren't, they're the mature ones. It's also at this juxtaposition of the Satanic panic and with Adam Walsh being kidnapped and unfortunately murdered, and also the rise of violent street crime during the Mariel boatlift time in Miami. I was raised in that time. And so it's this confluence of true crime stuff that's going on and how this group of friends is navigating that plus their families and things like that. So it's got some crime elements to it, and there will be something that happens, but it's really not a true crime or a murder mystery. It's really more of fiction with some suspenseful elements. And it's been a blast. And it's also been, you know you're getting older when they're like, oh, you're doing something in the early eighties, that's historical fiction. And you're like, excuse me. Sure enough. I mean, I'm digging all through all my research really. I got to tell you, it's blowing my mind a little bit. So I'm doing the research and I'm going back and I'm like, I am a relic. I am writing about a relic and I am a relic. So.
[Y]ou know you're getting older when they're like, oh, you're doing something in the early eighties, that's historical fiction. And you're like, excuse me.
Debbi (17:49): Feels odd doesn't It
Harper (17:51): It does. It does. But it's also a heck of a lot of fun.
Debbi (17:56): It is fun. Great fun. What's your writing schedule?
Harper (18:02): That is where my ADHD comes in, Deb. So I have a pretty thriving practice. I'm really lucky about that. So there are certain days, usually Monday through about Thursday, I'm writing midday from about 11 to three. Sometimes I'm researching, sometimes I'm writing. And on the weekends, it could be anytime, obviously. But then sometimes things come up that have to run errands, whatever. And I'm not one of these people, and I don't know if it's good or bad who has, I have to have my word count in by this week or that week. But I do think I do better with a deadline. So I purposely am writing this next book without trying to, I usually get a contract. I usually have a first few chapters, and my agent's been really great with that. I didn't want to do it that way this time. I kind of wanted to write really. Okay, I'm thinking five thoughts at once. So let me backtrack. During COVID, I had a tremendous writer's block. I could not read, I couldn't write. It was a terrible time that way.
(19:19): And one of the things that I came up with personally was that while I enjoyed writing the romances and the mysteries that I have, it felt more like a job just because of the pace and feeling like you were beholden. Of course, because you have contracts and things like that. I really had lost the joy and the exploration and what have you. So I probably have indulged myself a little bit too much on the other side, but I'm really been trying to work on finding, first of all, it's to find the story that I actually wanted to commit to. And then finding the rhythm. And it's only been, I hate to say it in the last year, that I've even was able to arrange my schedule because I have a lot of patients first thing in the morning before work, and then of course after work.
(20:09): And so that midday of being able to have that time, and I do better when I have that. And I do better when I'm treating my ADHD and I'm medicated and I can stay on those things otherwise it's really hard. And I was a later diagnosed person as well, so it was around that period of time. So do you know what I'm saying? So it was just trying to, learning how my mind works best with ADHD and perimenopause and all of these other things. But that's okay because everything that I went through is now stuff that I get to help other, I have mostly women in my practice. I get to help them because I've been through it. And so for that reason, it's okay. But yeah, it was a grind to sort of figure it out because all the tricks that worked before didn't work anymore.
Debbi (21:02): Wow.
Harper (21:03): Yeah.
Debbi (21:04): Well, I really admire your ability to deal with that situation. That can be very tough. Thank you. Thank you. Honestly, appreciate it. Let's see. How do you divide your time between writing and marketing?
Harper (21:22): That's so funny. I, so marketing, when I actually have a book out, I tend to work obviously with the publisher and hiring. I do hire a publicist now just to take some of that off my plate. In fact, one of the fabulous people had organized this talk that we're having now, and I really appreciate that. But look, that's money. And I put aside money and other things to afford that. Others would rather keep that for themselves and do the marketing themselves. God bless you. And I love talking to people such as yourself who have podcasts. It's not about that, it's just it's all the time, right.
Debbi (22:03): Time, yeah.
Harper (22:03): It's all about time.
Debbi (22:04): It's all about time. Exactly.
Harper (22:06): So what I really tend to do, whether it's ... mostly it's through Instagram and then I'll just share that reel or post is I'll share something of just either what I'm writing about or what's going on in my life or try to make people laugh and what have you. So I'm keeping a conversation and a relationship without it being about selling all the time. It's really about, so that is a constant. I do that almost every day unless I'm on vacation like I've been. But otherwise, and even if it's just a, "Hey, this was something that made me laugh" or whatever. I actually ended up having someone recently who's living in a war zone right now, and she is a fan of my books. And she ended up DMing me that she just wanted to thank me for some of the funny memes and other things that I share through my feed that sometimes when she's in a bomb shelter, that that's sometimes, obviously she will have certain ones that are saved on her phone and it helps her. And I was like, oh, wow. So I mean, that's not thinking of it for everyone like that, everyone, it's like a haha, and you move on with your life and that's totally fine too. But that meant a lot to me, that it could be something from across the world that something I'm just finding amusing having this conversation. So I loved that.
I'll share something of just either what I'm writing about or what's going on in my life or try to make people laugh and what have you. So I'm keeping a conversation and a relationship without it being about selling all the time.
Debbi (23:32): It's nice to be able to help people that way,
Harper (23:35): Isn't it? Yeah, I agree.
Debbi (23:38): Just a nice touch.
Harper (23:40): Yes.
Debbi (23:41): What advice would you give to anyone who's interested in having a writing career?
Harper (23:46): Oh wow. That's a great question. I will give, I'll just say what I did. I did not wait until I had the most perfect manuscript. I did not wait until I had the most brilliant idea. Again, as I said earlier in the podcast, I got into my early forties and I'm like, what am I waiting for? And I started with a novella and I look back now and I'm like, Ugh. But honestly, my first several romance novels were my writing school, and I learned a lot. And I had amazing editors through different houses who really took their time to help me improve. That was something that was a grace that they gave me. It's not something I expected. But I think that especially more with women, I don't see this as much with men. I don't mean to make this a gendered thing, but we kind of wait until we think we're perfect and then we're going to try. And I've seen people through different writers associations who have been working on the same manuscript for 10 years. And I'm like, now is there also, the flip side of that is that someone reads an earlier book of mine, they're like, oh, but I own that. And I say, yeah, not so good. But it was good enough for that period and each one keeps getting better and not to be so precious.
I did not wait until I had the most perfect manuscript. I did not wait until I had the most brilliant idea. Again, as I said earlier in the podcast, I got into my early forties and I'm like, what am I waiting for?
(25:19): To also, I ended up, I don't know if you can do this anymore, you'll have to tell me. Because back in the day, I ended up emailing half a dozen publishers that I had identified who would probably like my stuff and sent them a query letter and obviously made sure it was fully polished and everything. And I was able to do that directly. I didn't need an agent for my first four or five books. I don't know. I'm sure there's some that will still let you query directly. There's some that won't start with the ones who will take your queries directly. If you want that big agency, don't go for the one who's the big name. Maybe there's some scrappy person there who wants to make their career.
Debbi (26:05): It's absolutely true.
Harper (26:06): You sort of can plot it together and don’t expect it to be sure. We all want a national bestseller or first stuff to be made into movies, and maybe that happens. Absolutely. Don't lose that dream. And I'm not saying that it can't happen, but the product can't be the main reason why you're doing it. It's got to be process. And if you just love writing or, although a lot of us writers we love and hate it at the same time, but if you kind of feel like you have to do it or you have a story or you just, even if it gets rejected, even if nothing happens with it, I mean, how many stories have we all heard of, oh, that book was rejected 30 times or this one couldn't get an agent. There's a million stories like that. Take feedback, by the way. That's another thing. Make sure it's with people that you respect.
(27:05): Make sure, trust your gut with that. You may really disagree with everything they're saying, but if you start hearing sort of the same thing two or three times, then change it. You've got to be really brave and humble. It is something that I look at everything, whether it's the writing or whether I am being in service to something that's not just myself. Even if I get to enjoy it, it's for something else. And so that helps me take the ego out of it. And if a story isn't working or a character isn't working that I really liked or was attached to, it's like, well, then this is no longer in service to the story or to whatever it is. And that for some reason, I don't know if that helps, but it's those kinds of things.
Debbi (27:59): Okay, makes sense.
Harper (27:59): And network. And don't just sit in your place. I could be shy, can't tell it right now, but you should go to conferences, you should make friends. That's how I got my first agent was, and my only agent, she's awesome, was because a really good friend of mine also had her and said, oh, you're already on your six book. It's time to get an agent. And she introduced us and we had a conversation. And I don't know if I would've gotten past a certain part of her pile otherwise, but also my friend offered it to me. I didn't ask her.
Debbi (28:35): Yes.
Harper (28:38): I would never want to put someone in a position, but that was some deliciousness that she gave me. And people want to do it. If they believe in you, they want to do it.
Debbi (28:48): Exactly. You just have to develop those relationships and so much relationship trust. Absolutely. A hundred percent trust that you're doing good stuff. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's great advice and I just want to thank you so much for being with us today. Is there anything you'd like to add before we finish up?
Harper (29:09): Nothing. I mean, you can email me at HarperKincaid26six@gmail. I'm happy to answer back. I follow back if people have more questions. I love keeping in touch that way, and I really just want to thank you for your time and having me on here. It's been such a treat.
Debbi (29:28): Well, thank you. And I really enjoyed meeting you and talking to you.
Harper (29:33): Me too, for sure.
Debbi (29:35): So thanks so much, Harper, and we'll have our bonus episode after this.
Harper (29:43): I'm excited about that.
Debbi (29:45): For Patreon supporters.
Harper (29:47): That'll be good.
Debbi (29:48): Yeah, it'll be awesome. I just want to say thank you to everyone who's listening, and if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review. They're much appreciated. And consider becoming a Patreon supporter. You can get ad-free episodes, excerpts from my work. What else? I have bonus episodes. I've got book reviews, all sorts of things on Patreon for supporters. I also have a shop there where you can get books at a discount if you're a supporter. Also, um ... that's it. That's all I had to say other than until next time, when our guest will be Saralyn Richard, take care and happy reading. Be seeing you.
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